Forest list archive: msg00123

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Riddle (diversity) - Summary



Some time ago I posted the following question:

> Which is more diverse?  Two hectares with an even mixture of
> species A and B, or 1 ha of A and 1 ha of B?

I was somewhat hesitant in calling this a "riddle" in the subject
line.  According to the diccionary a riddle requires some ingenuity
to answer, what seemed beyond such a simple query.  But I did not
count on the ingenuity displayed for NOT answering the question!

Seriously, I appreciate the response and trust that others will also
find interesting and useful the replies collected here.  Believe it
or not, I had no hidden agenda or second intentions for asking this.
No punch line.  Just genuinely intrigued and confused by the
meaning(s) or interpretation(s) of "diversity", and wandered about
its significance in relation to an issue that interests me,
multi-purpose stands versus multi-purpose forests (aka zoning, more
on that some other time.)  The results have been very educational for
me.

The replies follow, in order of arrival.  Two of them were emailed
personally to me instead of to the list, so I presume that the
authors prefer to remain anonymous.  At the end I try to present some
conclusions.

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From:      David South <dsouth@FORESTRY.AUBURN.EDU>

or 1 ha of A and 1 ha of B PLUS one individual C?

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From:      Morwenna Spear <afu030@BANGOR.AC.UK>

If the two separate areas of A and B are discrete this combination
will be less diverse than the same combination where the two areas
are adjacent, i.e. with a third ecosystem on the transition between
one area and the next.

Perhaps

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From:      Kjell Pernestal <Kjell.Pernestal@FYSIK.UU.SE>

What kind of interaction is there between A and B?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
From:      Rob Harrison <robh@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

> What kind of interaction is there between A and B?
> Kjell Pernestal

Also, there is no such thing as a hectare of land with only one or
two species.  Perhaps one or two tree species, OK, but diversity is
much more than the trees on the land.  The diversity of species in
the soil and that use the area of land come into the equation of
"diversity" as well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
From:      David Larsen <dlarsen@SYLVAN.SNR.MISSOURI.EDU>

  We all know that diversity means many things to many people but in
terms of standard diversity measures (Simpsons or Shannon-Weiner),
two things increase diversity

   1. richness (number of categories per sample eg. species per plot)
   2. evenness (relative abundance of those categories)

As either of these increase diversity increases.  By this measure
mixed stand are more diverse than the non-mixed.
   Note that diversity measures do not specify the categories
(genera, species, subspecies, etc) to use or what organisms to
include or exclude (typically those we can identify).  These are
judgment of the user of the equations.

   These distinctions may or may not be important to the concept of
diversity but they are the quantitative tools we have to measure
diversity.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
From:      -

Oh, let me guess ...

By now you have lots of replies essentially telling you that you
don't really understand your own question.  These people will not, of
course, answer the question no matter how much you clarify it.  I
keep telling them "you decide - now answer the question".

The latest dodge around here is that you have alpha, beta, and gamma
diversity.  Alpha being diversity inside (mixed is more diverse) beta
being between (one of each is more diverse) and gamma looking at both
at once.  By this system, if you have bears in two valleys, go into
one valley and shoot them all you have decreased alpha, increased
beta and had no effect on gamma diversity.

Give these muddle-headed twits no quarter.  If they were not surfing
on the front of the wave they would not be dangerous, but they are.
Sincerity and complexity as a substitute for depth of thinking is not
very effective.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
From:      Nelson Thiffault <nels@MICROTEC.NET>

I think that it depends on what kind of "diversity" you think of.
Alpha, beta or gamma (ref. Whittaker 1965; 1972) ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------
From:      -

For me, the answer depends on the scale your considering.  At some
scales, the diversity is identical.  However, in some senses, scale
is a human-concept.  I wonder what scale nature uses?  My guess is
that for ecological consideration, 2 ha of A+B is almost the same as
1 A and 1 B if they are adjacent.  However, 2000 ha vs 1000 + 1000 is
a different matter entirely!

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My own idea of an answer is not really important, but here it goes
anyway.

If we are talking about biodiversity (everybody assummed that), I
would think that by any reasonable definition there should not be a
great difference between the two situations.  I stated a hypothetical
problem with a grand total of 2 species (not necessarily trees!),
assuming that being able to answer simple questions is a prerequisite
for answering complex ones.  There is probably some "eco-logical"
principle that invalidates such a naive assumption :-)
If you insist in clouding the issue by thinking in associated flora
and fauna, it seems to me that for variety most of the time two
ecosystems would be better than one.

About landscape diversity, I guess that it depends, literally, on
your viewpoint, if from there you can see the wood for the trees or
not.

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